Great Western Coffee Shop

So, what rises are there from your stations?

Here are a couple to get you (and me) started ...

Day Return, Melksham to Swindon. Up from 8.20 to 8.60; + 4.87%

Peak Single, Swindon to Salisbury using direct through train at 06:15. Up from 53.00 to 56.00; + 5.66%

My Season Ticket: Swindon- Guildford is up from ^5812 to ^6160 (5.98% increase)

My monthly season has gone from ^135.55 to ^151 - 11.4% *BUT* that's only because for the past 12 months its had a 5% discount ;) That's gonna hurt next year *crosses fingers for another 12 months of discounts*

I think the full price was about ^142, so that's around 6.3% in reality.

This is what FGW have to say.....
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/~/media/PDF/Press%20Releases/FaresIncreaseJan12.pdf

All very noble of FGW to freeze advance fares, but that simply means the ever-growing gulf between advance and on-the-day purchases widens.  In the long term that can't be good?

I noted that Mark Hopwood said they have frozen the Best Value advanced fares - so only the cheapest tier, right?   

Quick "fag packet" calculation gave me a figure of over 110 million seats per year on FGW services (does anyone have a true figure), so the freeze applies to less than 1% of seats - right.  And there are still price increases for passengers who have to stand, as I (under)stand it.

Personally,  I would have preferred the flexibility of the averages fare basket to have been used to reduce some of the anomolies that we take full advantage of here, but confuse the heck out of many people and mean that some services are uneconomic to run.   I posted earlier in this thread about fare rises Melksham -> Swindon and Swindon -> Salisbury.  Actually, if every fare on the line had gone up by a pound single and 2 pounds return, it would have provide enough extra income (if the money was retained by FGW) to make the difference between a loss and a profit in the second year of an appropriate TransWilts service.  Dear FGW Managers, Polititians, and DfT Admins - I would be delighted to go through the details of these figures with you.

My take on this is that FGW are keeping sweet with the DfT in order to get a favourable entry into the rebidding process....

In answer to Graham - yes, that's also my take. The lowest Advance band has been frozen only.

Be careful though - they say they haven't *exceeded* the 6% marker - but say some haven't changed. So closure of some gaps can be done, although not as quickly as if they'd gone over 6% with some fares.

Disgraceful rise in prices yet again. I fully intend to make my feelings known by initiially refusing to pay the new walk-up fares. How can it be cheaper to get to mainland Europe than take a 200 mile journey in the UK? How can you justify above inflation ticket price increases when many people didn't even get a 1% pay rise

Its a friggin' disgrace at a time when people are meant to abandon their cars to save the planet. FGW and the rest of these cowboy monopolisers know they have your average commuter by the short and curlies. I'd love to pay an extra 5% on extortionate fares to stand cramped in a smelly carriage, much the same as everyone has done for the last 5 years

A suposedly green government cannot justify their above inflation fare rises anymore. They might have had a point when they were saying the nation's finances cannot cope with funding the railways and fares needed to rise a bit. However, now they are raising the fares more (RPI+3% rather than RPI+1%) and seem to have found that they do have some money to spend after all. At the autumn statement, they of course reverted to RPI+1% for one year, but isn't the RPI+3% fares rocket coming back after that? I don't suggest a fare drop, that would put too much presure on finances, but what I want to see is an RPI+0 formula used for fares.


Anyway, going back to the autumn statement, a very large image on this page (click on it to make it large enough to be readable) (EDIT: see beneath for link, didn't work right) shows just how much reducing the rise back to RPI+1% saved. Compare that to the amount of money they found autumn statement's subsidy to motorists, a fuel duty cut costing more PER YEAR than the estimate for the entire anounced GWML electrification project to Cardiff, Bristol and Oxford. Glovidge is right, it really is a disgrace at a time when people are meant to abandon their cars to save the planet.

http://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/what-is-missing-from-this-graphic/#more-2315 (http://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/what-is-missing-from-this-graphic/#more-2315)

Good luck with that.


If you compare like with like I'd guess it probably isn't. I'm sure you can quote me a two-week advance, Thursdays only (before 0500) flight on Ryanair to a tin shack next to a grass airfield somewhere in Europe that works out cheaper than a 200 mile walk-up train fare. However if you compare walk-up fares on different modes of transport I would guess that the train comes out looking reasoanbly favourable. Equally, if you want to book a train on the same basis that you'd book a plane then there are no doubt some very cheap advance tickets you could get.

I'm happy to be corrected on the above, by the way, if you can actually provide some meaningful numbers that back up the bile you've just spewed.

I've just done a couple of checks so far; on Standard Class walk-up fares for Bristol TM - London Terminals.

Route: Any Permitted:
Super Off Peak Return, was ^48.80, from 2nd January ^51.50. An increase of 5.53%

Off Peak Return, was ^61.00, from 2nd January ^64.50. An increase of 5.73%

Anytime Return, was ^169, from 2nd January ^179. An increase of 5.92%

---

And one of my regular trips, Shirehampton - London Terminals: Route: Warmster/Salsbry:

Off Peak Day Return, was ^29.50, from 2nd January ^31.00. An increase of 5.08%

That fare is priced by First Great Western, whilst the same ticket type from Bristol Temple Meads is priced by South West Trains and has gone up from ^43 to ^45.60 which is an increase of 6.04%. It remains the case that for a slower (via Salisbury) journey from Bristol, Bath, Bradford-on-Avon, Trowbridge, Westbury and Warminster to London Terminals, it is considerably cheaper to buy your ticket from a Severn Beach line station.



Oh, and nice to see fares on the Severn Beach Line frozen.  :P

Bile I've spewed? So as part of an integrated greener transport policy you think price rises on public transport well above the rate of inflation will encourage people to ditch their cars and let the train take the strain? Great forward thinking for an greener, safer planet.

Or knowing that you can get a flight to Scotland for approximately the same price as a train journey in peak hours encourages people to be more carbon efficient?

Apologies for my "bile." Heres some more bile why on earth can't they open up first class carriages to the general smelly chavs like me who congregate in the vestibules causing health and safety problems at peak hours?

Of course I'm no industry insider just someone fed up with being ripped off for a continually sh*t service that is rarely punctual, often cramped and has had no marked improvements in 5 years. Espeically when one uses public transport abroad.

Rip Off Britain

Welcome news that FGW have capped all rises to 6% or less and also welcome news that Advance Purchase fares are frozen. Although it should be noted that AP quotas can be manipulated to allow for stealth rises. But generally they've sugared the pill quite well.

That said, the cynic in me thinks FGW may well be on a charm offensive. There's a certain franchise ITT coming up....

Rule 1 - It's business not charity.

RPI +1% for a 6% increase - debatable whether that's well above the rate of inflation. You'll note that the RAC are quoted as saying that motoring costs have risen 12% in the same time period.


Nearly all of this comes down to HM Government's policy towards the railways over many years. They are expected to operate as a business and turn a profit. "Supply and demand" dictates that if a train operator can fill a train to Scotland with people paying full fares at peak times then they have no incentive to charge less. The existence of a parallel air service is immaterial in that calculation. Governments abroad, for example in much of continental Europe, take the view that the railways should operate as a public service rather than a business, and subsidize them accordingly such that income from fares actually covers only a fraction of operating costs. That said, despite the superb flagship high-speed services in countries like Germany and France, their commuter and rural trains are often grimy, clapped-out and unpunctual.

I don't know you so I can't comment in your personal hygeine, but the reason standard class ticket holders aren't allowed to use first class carriages at peak times is precisely because the people sitting in them have paid a large premium to travel in a quieter, more comfortable environment.

I'm not an industry insider either, but as a non-commuter I can take a more dispassionate view. Incidentally, without wishing to open up an additional can of worms, I assume you were well aware of commuting costs before you chose to live and work where you do...?

I wish you luck with your protest but suspect you'll have trouble convincing any TOC to give you your own personal discount on any fares you buy to keep them at 2011 levels.

I see the Swindon Paddington Fares are rising from ^109 to ^112 (2.8%) Anytime Return; from ^49 to ^51.10 (5.1%) Off Peak Return and from ^39 to ^41 super off peak(5.1%).

At least the exorbitant Anytime Fare is rising less than average.  

The 7 day Season is rising from ^200 to ^212 which is the full 6%. Season ticket holders will not like it but it is still only ^1.40 a day more than a super-off peak if you use it for 5 days.  

Heres Tim O'Toole's First Group's CEO renumeration package:

last year's salary: ^591,000
housing allowance: ^138,000
bonus: ^760,000

this company has a number of near monopolies in local markets, delivers a rubbish service for rip off prices, pays its staff at the bottom crap wages  and they still tell us that the private sector are the best people to run essential public services?

Nice work if you can get it.

It's obviously difficult to say for sure, but I'd guess that if the public monopoly that was British Rail was still in existence then the man or woman at the top would be taking home a tidy sum as well.

Network Rail is essentially a public entity in all but name, and the executive directors (excluding David Higgins) took home between GBP365k and 546k in 2010/2011, down from between 564k and 915k in 2009/2010.*

And do you really think you'd feel differently about paying these fare rises if they were going to British Rail rather than First?

*_{Source is Network Rail Infrastructure Limited's annual report and accounts for 2011}

RPI inflation was running at 5.6% in September, now down to 5.2%, so even if it was RPI on it's own, the rises would not be far off the current figures.

The old "salary" argument doesn't work, Tim O' Toole is ultimately responsible for several rail and bus contracts and of course business in the USA too.

Top dog at Lloyds TSB who's just returned from sick - potential ^10m a year remuneration package - and who owns Lloyds again?

Of course I will support FGW in their business decisions, however no-one wants to pay more for anything, (i've had people moaning about paying 20p more on the Exmouth branch for a Groupsave 4 ticket).  I complain when petrol prices go up - am I driving off the forecourt in disgust?  Funnily enough no - although as inspector_blakey has already mentioned, I could save most of my fuel bill and live round the corner from the station.  I'd rather live out in the beautiful countryside, which costs me more in rent, council tax and heating oil as we cannot get mains gas - but it's my choice and i'm free to change career or housing location to suit my choice of lifestyle.  There are ways to reduce the miles I drive and I take them where possible.  Unless oil demand drops, the price won't come down, while trains are overcrowded and people pay the fares, then they won't come down either - supply and demand - business 101.

Also while there may be another "reason" for FGW fares not going above the 6%, surely if it's of "benefit" to the public, then it's a good thing regardless, and you don't all have to have your cynical hats on do you?  :D

One other reason the TOCs won't reduce the rises to below inflation is that their biggest overheads - power for trains/access charges & staff costs were both in excess of that same 5.2% inflation marker this year.

And don't deny it, FGW staffers, or I'll tell everyone how much you got :-)
Aggain, nice if you can get it....

If British Rail was still in existence then perhaps as you suggest the man or woman at the top would be taking home a tidy sum. However, there would only be one person at the very top level, as opposed to the top-level managers of many TOCs, Network Rail and the ROSCOs. Simply having a leasing arangment for rolling stock rather than public monopoly (British Rail) owning all the rolling stock and infrastructure makes the railways a fair bit more expensive to run. Leasing costs are in the region of ^1bn per anum I think I read somewhere.

Donkey Guard, I appreicate that fares won't come down while pepole are willing to pay the fares. BUT, if the government are going to subsidise more poluting modes of transport, like the private car and aviation, then we will begin to see more pepole who are not willing to pay the high rail fares as the alternatives become cheaper relative to rail.

A pay deal which did not exceed inflation and keeps pay off the FGW agenda until the end of the current franchise, safeguarding the Olympics too.

didn't exceed inflation? You're winding me up....

Surely the Government has in effect subsidised the railway further by not implementing RPI+3% ?

(It might have been the plan all along of course.)

Depends if you are looking at CPI or RPI I guess.  RPI is a truer inflation picture in my book and it didn't exceed it.  The Government was criticised for moving state pensions rises from RPI to CPI.

RPI + 0.5%?.....

While the government are subsidising rail, they are trying to reduce that subsidy using, in my opinion, the wrong means (above inflation fare rises). However, the issue I am disscusing here is that they are now giving a much larger subsidy to less sustainable modes than they are to rail (at least, motorists came off better from the autumn statment than rail passengers). If the price of rail tickets keeps on rising, then in my opinion it should be ensured that the cost of the less-sustainable alternatives rises at least as much. That now isn't happening, and money is still being ploughed into 'investment' in road schemes which cut the journey times for motorists while rail journey times remain static, and in many areas rail may thus fall behind the road journey time. Again, it is my opinion that the playing field needs leveling (or prefrablly biasing in favor of rail) with rail journey times being reduced to at least match any cuts to road journey times.

Rather than improve rail to match the improvments they are making to roads, it would be cheaper to improve neither. Then they could concontrate on clearing the nation's debt or pushing forward with a shift to renewable power and perhaps the new form of nuclear reactor which can deal with the waste from current nuclear power stations.

Besides, the government haven't canceled RPI + 3% rises for 2013 and 2014, or have they?

Chris you have a PM.

It's just for 1 year the +3% has been cancelled, we could be in the same position in 12 months though, who knows.

Surely there's plenty of rail journey reduction schemes currently under construction, previously announced as funded, or given funding in the Autumn Statement, to go hand-in-hand with road related ones?

Thanks, I've answered it.

Unless the UK is in really dire straits this time next year, I forecast the +3% will be back. It might encourage people to move house

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16384314):

Hmmm - that ain't right, is it?.....(my emphasis)

And BBC, it's not 'advanced purchase'. There's nothing particularly advanced about the methods of purchase.....

 ::)