ATOC in discussions over Split Ticketing

[whole diary]

[bobm]

I cannot provide a link to this but there is an article on page 6 of the November 2011 Railway Magazine headlined "Split ticketing could be stopped"

The article says train operators and ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) have been discussing the practice because more and more people are doing it following publicity on the Internet ( ) and the press.

It says no decision has been reached but does point out it might be hard to stop as a passenger is under no obligation to say how far they plan to travel.

[RailCornwall]

The only way to stop it would be the need for stamping all tickets at the point of departure. Introducing the need to Compost at point of departure (as stated on the ticket) would effectively stop the practice. Having to disembark and wait for a subsequent service would seriously impact on the user of the split ticket.

[grahame]

The only way to stop it would be the need for stamping all tickets at the point of departure. Introducing the need to Compost at point of departure (as stated on the ticket) would effectively stop the practice. Having to disembark and wait for a subsequent service would seriously impact on the user of the split ticket.

No - you could also stop it by changing the fare system so that it became very rare for a cheaper journey to be achieved by buying in multiple segments.   And I think that it would cost less in admin to issue one ticket rather than two as well ... much cheaper than having boarding checks at every station!

[RailCornwall]

Wholly agree with your sentiments, but if the exisiting fare regime is to stay then composting seems to be the easiest way of resolving the matter.

[grahame]

P.S.  If the fares were set up so that split ticketing didn't save money, it would allow the removal of the "must stop at" rule, which is rather silly ...  

Imagine that you live in Chippenham.    You wife's hairdresser's boyfriend offers you a lift to Didcot, which you gratefully accept.  And you buy a return ticket from there to London, expecting to get a lift home too.   But during the day, your wife calls you to let you know that Colin (that's the hairdresser's boyfriend) has unexpectedly been called away from Didcot to do a job in Queen's Camel and can't offer you a lift home from Didcot after all.   So when you get to Paddington, you buy an extra Didcot to Chippenham ticket so you can go straight home. Why on earth should you have to travel on a train that actually stops at Didcot in such a circumstance?  It's adding insult to injury to force you to do so!

[inspector_blakey]

Christian Wolmar mentioned the same thing in a recent article of Rail (mentioned here), although it was unsourced.

His take on the issue was that the sweetener here would be allowing passengers who have already purchased an advance ticket and miss their train/want to upgrade to a flexible fare/get on the wrong train for whatever reason would have the fare already paid taken into account when purchasing the new ticket, rather than the advance ticket becoming worthless as it does at the moment.

[Tim]

What would happen if tickets needed to be Composted at Didcot would be that people would leap off to get tickets stamped (perhaps leaving a mate holding the door open) and then rush back to the platform and try and get on the same train. 

Result -> an increase in slips and trips, people missing their train (and causing staff agro) and people joining at the last minute thereby holding trains up and damaging the performance statistics.

Also the reputational damage would be large.  Think of all the negaative news stories. It would only make TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) look like the spivs (sorry "thinly-capitalised privateers") that they are.     

[RailCornwall]

Not if composting was required pre-barrier and not on the platform. Incidentally I'm not defending the existing ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) ticketiing policy at all. I'd much prefer an adjusted kilometric system, amemded for very busy routes (and by inference time of travel related as well).

[inspector_blakey]

So given that many ticket types offer what are essentially unlimited breaks-of-journey during their validity, how do you propose to adapt the continental-style 'composting' system to accommodate that? Not required in mainland Europe as fares are calculated by the kilometre so if you want to go from A to D stopping at B and C you simply buy tickets from A>B, B>C and C>D. Doesn't work in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) though!

Composting works with a distance-based fares system but that's not going to happen any time soon. It would only make the UK system more complicated than it already is. I agree that it would be very difficult to enforce a ban on split ticketing otherwise (unless a train manager with an incredible memory can remember exactly whose tickets they've already seen and where they got on!) but there are plenty of other rules in the conditions of carriage already that are nigh-on impossible to enforce - non-transferability of tickets springs to mind, for example.

[Worcester_Passenger]

Also the reputational damage would be large.  Think of all the negative news stories. It would only make TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) look like the spivs (sorry "thinly-capitalised privateers") that they are.     

I agree with Tim. The existing fares structure is so fragmented.

ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) as an organisation are in total denial about the reality of this situation. I've just read a reaction of theirs to this month's Which? piece about public understanding of fares conditions. They haven't understood any of the issues raised.

[inspector_blakey]

Or alternatively ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) have understood Which only too well, and know themselves that the entire fare system is f@$%*d. Therefore they bury their head in the sand, stick their fingers in their ears and pretend that everyone understands the system perfectly well and nobody ever gets diddled through over-caution and buying a more expensive ticket than the needed. Therefore they don't address any of the issues raised.

[thetrout]

And how do you propose to stop split ticketing in the instance that my split is a location where I have to change trains anyway.

I buy a First Class Single Ticket from Bath Spa to West Ham via route: Warminster/Salisbury. When I arrive at West Ham, I already have another ticket to continue onto Chalkwell from West Ham. I haven't bought a through ticket as you cannot get tickets to c2c line stations via Warminster/Salisbury. When I get to West Ham, I could just walk up the stairs onto the c2c Platforms, or go out of the ticket barriers and then in again. The chances are that by the time I get to West Ham when I normally do, the ticket barriers will be open anyway

Now here's an interesting technique. I could even use the excuse that I "split" the tickets at West Ham for a toilet break where in the case of West Ham, the toilet is located outside of the station near the entrance. So I could argue, that although I hold 2 seperate tickets, so therefore I am "splitting", I could argue that I am making 2 entirely seperate journey's as technically I have left the station premises to use the toilet outside the station.

It's a catch 22 situation for both sides of the forces on this one I think.

Another example is where I had to buy a ticket from Warrington Bank Quay to Crewe and then Crewe to Chester, as there wasn't a through First Class ticket to Chester from Warrington, Despite FC^‡(resolve) being available on both legs of the journey at the time I was travelling. Would I be penalised then for "splitting" because the original ticket I wanted for the class of travel required wasn't available...?! One would hope not

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

the new smart cards for online booking will do something to help when they come in

[super tm]

One of the main reasons for split ticketing is that some fares are regulated and some are not.  If you abolished  regulated fares TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s could then adjust the fares so splitting the tickets would not save you ant money.

[paul7575]

In the same edition of Rail magazine when Wolmar floated this idea, about 6 weeks ago (and where's his evidence anyway?), Barry Doe explained why it wouldn't be fixable - and as you say it is down to certain fares being commuter fares and regulated.  The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are extremely unlikely to reduce unregulated fares to the levels of the regulated ones, and would be damned all round if they ever released the cheap fares from regulation to put them up to levels where splitting would have no benefit.

Paul