Crossrail/Elizabeth Line. From construction to operation - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) executive summary:

Surely the Western Route Study superceded this?

[SandTEngineer]

I think the key point being made in the LR document is that they see the Elizabeth Line very much like a tube line, running all day as a turn up and go railway (i.e. in theory you don't need a timetable to use it) with no peak/off peak differentation.  How Heathrow Express fits into all of that is really a bit of a side show at the moment.

[stuving]

Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) executive summary:

Surely the Western Route Study superceded this?

Yes, in that it's dated 2015 (see above - I sneaked in before you). But while it's newer, it isn't a single self-consistent replacement. In part this is covered by labelling the future plans "options", but the degree of incompatibility isn't spelled out.

So, as well as wanting to push all Heathrow trains onto the Reliefs, NR^» (Network Rail - home page) also talk about doing the same with the semi-fasts, meaning anything that stops inside Reading. Obviously that's not the same future that TfL^» (Transport for London - about) are presuming.

[Oxonhutch]

Reading the article (which has been revised by the author [PoP] after correcting comments) the HEx services are not to be forced onto the Reliefs but still accommodated on the Mains.  That is good news for the TV semi-fasts as they provided stopping paths on the Mains at either Twyford or Maidenhead - for stopping patterns see one on the comments posted today (8/3/17). These articles tend to get written by those in the know and quite close (in past lives) to the heart of government - not withstanding that they are personal opinions, I weigh them quite seriously.

[TonyK]

These articles tend to get written by those in the know and quite close (in past lives) to the heart of government - not withstanding that they are personal opinions, I weigh them quite seriously.

Sometimes, it isn't just what is being said that matters, but who is saying it.

Take my utterances with a pinch of salt.

[Oxonhutch]

Take my utterances with a pinch of salt.

If you are sitting in seat 0A, and I can hear you, I will take your utterances very seriously! 

[paul7575]

Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) executive summary:

Surely the Western Route Study superceded this?

It is an iterative process agreed, but I was really only trying to highlight that the debate about Paddington to Stockley track usage is not something that only TfL^» (Transport for London - about) have raised this month...

Paul

[Tim]

How Heathrow Express fits into all of that is really a bit of a side show at the moment.

I agree.  As I understand it HEx only has access rights until sometime in the 2020s.  After that I think it would be open to NR^» (Network Rail - home page)/Government/ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)/someone to allocate HEx paths to someone else. 

[eightf48544]

What about the very vague proposals for a 6 track railway from Padd tp Slough or at least in parts.

[stuving]

What about the very vague proposals for a 6 track railway from Padd tp Slough or at least in parts.

There is a fifth track in places, but I don't think I've seen much more proposed. But I'm sure it's clear now that the Crossrail tunnel ought to run to OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)), and that was clear (to those who built it) before they had finished digging it. There is quite a lot of lineside land much of the way to Stockley, which is the important bit, but with some tricky bits. Ealing Broadway would have to be rebuilt, and any station further out you want to stop semifasts at (e.g. Slough) needs a fast through bypass rather than six tracks in between.

The choice of bored tunnel for WRAtH^▸ (Western Rail Access to Heathrow) was based on the idea that once your megamole is down its hole and scrabbling away it's cheaper to keep going than to surface and build two bridges, under the M4 and A4. The same logic is being applied to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), and if applied to Crossrail it would have ended up differently.

[stuving]

All of this squabbling over track capacity is really a symptom of something that's been known far longer - two track pairs just isn't enough. "A Railway Plan for London" in 1965 includes a section of the "1949 London Plan Working Party Report" called "Essentials of Practical Railway Plan". This spells out that what it labels an "urban type service" and an "outer suburban type service" can't sensibly operate over the same pair of tracks. As it's about London it isn't concerned about high-speed long distance services, but we know now (and did in 1965) they can't share with either if you want the maximum capacity. Put another way, adding a service of the "wrong" type to a track pair takes out more than one path.

In 1965, the priority was to increase the "outer suburban" service without disrupting the long distance one, and their proposal was to scrap the stopping service to Hayes, closing Acton, West Ealing, Hanwell and Southall stations. It says as justification, "traffic on the short-distance service to Hayes is small and is not rising"; and "The traffic potential of this service is too small to warrant replacement by a London Underground service. Preliminary examination suggests that an experss bus service between Hayes and a railhead at Ealing Broadway might be capable of meeting the need."

That report is in the Railways Archive - it's scanned off a poor printed copy, so hard to reproduce here.  It does have traffic numbers for London commuters which make an interesting comparison with the last London and South East RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy). So does their estimate of the capacity of a track pair: for "urban type" (i.e. metro) service 40 tph, and for "outer suburban" 25 tph. How many lines can do that now?

[IndustryInsider]

Wharncliffe and Hanwell viaducts would also be very significant obstacles to a 6-track railway as well as those that have been mentioned.  Can't see it ever happening in a traditional 6-track sense.  A more likely (but still unlikely) way forward would be a tunnelled separate High Speed route from
London to a significant way out.

[paul7575]

So does their estimate of the capacity of a track pair: for "urban type" (i.e. metro) service 40 tph, and for "outer suburban" 25 tph. How many lines can do that now?

If they are talking about 2 way capacity (as is sometimes the case), then quite a few?

Paul

[stuving]

So does their estimate of the capacity of a track pair: for "urban type" (i.e. metro) service 40 tph, and for "outer suburban" 25 tph. How many lines can do that now?

If they are talking about 2 way capacity (as is sometimes the case), then quite a few?

Paul

That would make the numbers too low, wouldn't it? And while the meaning isn't stated in plain words there, other places do contain references to 24 tph as a standard figure each way for one BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) track pair. For example, it states with impressive certainty that one track pair delivering 24 tph into a terminus needs just 4 platforms.

The fast lines at Waterloo are, according to NR^» (Network Rail - home page), capable of running at 2 minutes headway = 30 tph as a maximum, though with one every half hour left blank for recovery. However, I don't think it's ever been done even for the "busy hour", and as to whether humans could construct such a timetable, let alone operate to it, ...

[SandTEngineer]

The fast lines at Waterloo are, according to NR^» (Network Rail - home page), capable of running at 2 minutes headway = 30 tph as a maximum, though with one every half hour left blank for recovery. However, I don't think it's ever been done even for the "busy hour", and as to whether humans could construct such a timetable, let alone operate to it ...

....they tried in 1967 on the South Eastern at Charing Cross/Cannon Street/London Bridge and it was an outstanding.......