Qn.2 for Mark Hopwood: Decarbonising local railways

[whole diary]

[chuffed]

Thank you Mark for providing that link. Much appreciated.

[MarkHopwood]

The Severn Beach issues were also caused by crew, infrastructure and some other issues as well as fleet. Fundamentally the Turbo was the same train that had worked reliably in the Thames Valley.

The Class 230 has Ford Transit engines underneath that are failing in a terminal manner.

The scenarios are quite different.

[IndustryInsider]

I think the point is lots of things may be possible but they haven’t happened yet and I am not keen to have my services used as a testbed - that should be done when customers won’t be put at risk of service disruption.

Let's hope the 769s don't prove to have reliability and performance issues if and when they come out of their very prolonged testing period.

[broadgage]

A battery powered train SHOULD be more reliable than a diesel powered one.
Batteries are inherently modular and means are readily available to automatically bypass a failed battery, allowing the train to proceed with almost unaltered performance.

Lithium iron phosphate batteries are the most likely technology, these are no longer new or exotic or untried technology, and are safer than lithium polymer batteries.

A 12 volt 100 AH lithium iron phosphate battery costs about £500 retail, less than half that much in bulk.
1,000 such batteries would cost in the region of £250,000 and would store over 1,000 Kwh of energy.
The total weight of these batteries is about 12 Kg each, or about 12 tons for 1,000 such.
That would power a 4 car train for a very considerable distance, silently and with zero pollution at the point of use.
Regenerative braking is easy with a battery train.
Charging could be fully automatic via a short length of conductor rail that for safety reasons is only rendered live when the train is over it.
Fast charging would be possible anywhere with an 11Kv mains supply available.
Slower charging anywhere with mains electricity.
Charging from existing OHLE is an alternative on routes that are partially electrified.

[eightonedee]

One of the things you become used to on this forum are the foibles of its members. It seems the class 230 is to Mark what the catering on IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train) is to Broadgage!

However the continuing delays in the class 769 programme are of concern, as this must be messing up the cascade of units. It would be good to have some openness about the problems that clearly are being experienced. From what I have gleaned it appears that the OHL^▸ (Over-Head Line)/diesel bi-modes have problems to be resolved. Have any "tri-mode" versions been completed and are any yet being tested?

[MarkHopwood]

I don’t feel obsessed about 230s. I just don’t understand the enthusiasm to bring super-annuated LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) trains to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) which would make performance more challenging but I accept the 769s have to show decent performance!

[Celestial]

I don’t feel obsessed about 230s. I just don’t understand the enthusiasm to bring super-animated LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) trains to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) which would make performance more challenging but I accept the 769s have to show decent performance!

Given how long overdue the ones for TfW and Northern are, I think the first hurdle is that they show up at all.  Maybe you can beat the other two in getting yours in service first!  I see there have been some more failures of the 230 in the last few days, so whilst I was the one to suggest them, I do agree that the jury is still out on them, especially the diesel versions.

[Rhydgaled]

A battery powered train SHOULD be more reliable than a diesel powered one.
Batteries are inherently modular and means are readily available to automatically bypass a failed battery, allowing the train to proceed with almost unaltered performance.

Lithium iron phosphate batteries are the most likely technology, these are no longer new or exotic or untried technology, and are safer than lithium polymer batteries.

A 12 volt 100 AH lithium iron phosphate battery costs about £500 retail, less than half that much in bulk.
1,000 such batteries would cost in the region of £250,000 and would store over 1,000 Kwh of energy.
The total weight of these batteries is about 12 Kg each, or about 12 tons for 1,000 such.
That would power a 4 car train for a very considerable distance, silently and with zero pollution at the point of use.
Regenerative braking is easy with a battery train.
Charging could be fully automatic via a short length of conductor rail that for safety reasons is only rendered live when the train is over it.
Fast charging would be possible anywhere with an 11Kv mains supply available.
Slower charging anywhere with mains electricity.
Charging from existing OHLE is an alternative on routes that are partially electrified.

But what is "a very considerable distance"? I don't suppose a battery train would have the range necessary to do something like Wolverhampton to Aberystwyth and back (with a turnaround of only 10 minutes I doubt much recharging would happen at Aberystwyth), Crewe to Swansea (one way, as there might be time to charge at Swansea before heading back), Bristol to Plymouth, Exeter to Penzance or Swansea to Pembroke Dock. Sadly, I can see no alternative to diesel for those routes in the medium term. Reducing the fuel consumption is therefore key.

A class 230 would be completely unsuitable in terms of comfort/quality for such long journeys but surely the hybrid concept can be applied to better-quality rolling stock too. Angel Trains have even proposed converting existing DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) with mechanical/hydrolic transmission (class 165 and class 175 if I recall correctly) which must be a much bigger technical challange than providing an alternative source of power for trains that already have electric motors.

So, my question is this, if 1,000 batteries are needed for an IPEMU^▸ (Independely Powered Electic Multiple Unit (train running on batteries)) (Independantly Powered Electric Multiple Unit) how many would you need for a new-build diesel-electric multiple unit with 2 or 3 23-24m vehicles? The batteries would be charged both by the diesel engine and with regenerative braking.