Tram-Trains To Be Trialled On The Penistone Line

[whole diary]

[Lee]

Not strictly speaking FGW^▸ (First Great Western)-related, but will be of interest, I suspect :

Five new tram-trains, which can run on both railway tracks and tram lines, will replace conventional trains currently used on the 37-mile Penistone Line between Huddersfield, Barnsley and Sheffield (link below.)
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=361330&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False

The trial, which starts in 2010 and will take two years, will look at the environmental benefits, operating costs and technical suitability of the tram-trains as well as testing how popular the vehicles are with passengers on the route. There is also an option for a second phase which would test the vehicles on the Sheffield Supertram system to see what additional benefits the vehicles can deliver when extended onto city centre tram lines.

The project is a partnership between the Department for Transport, the train operator Northern Rail and rail infrastructure owner Network Rail and seeks to establish whether tram-trains similar to those operating successfully in Europe are suitable for Britain's railway network.

Northern Rail, which is owned by Serco-Ned Railways, will run a competition for manufacturers to build the tram-trains, which Northern will lease, and Network Rail will spend ^15m in track improvements and alterations to stations as part of the trial.

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will contribute ^9m to fund the operation of the trial and Northern will bring experience from Europe through Ned Railways who operate tram-trains in The Netherlands.

The Penistone Line has been chosen for the trial because it offers the chance to test the tram-trains on a route that in part is for passenger trains only and in part for passenger and freight trains.

[eightf48544]

Oh dear, deaspite harping  on about tram trains on this board what do "they" go and do choose just the wrong line for the experiment.

It's 37 miles long and even though I love modern trams that's a bit too far.

It doesn't say if they are electryfying the line or will they be ED trams? If they are electrifying the line will it be 600 Volt DC^▸ (Direct Current) street tram voltage or 25Kv mainline? If they are ED then 37 miles is too far. There is also nothing about the frequency and it's only later they might test on the Sheffield tramway etc.

No tram trains are just the thing for Portishead and Severn Beach and Avonmouth round to Filton coming off onto the streets at suitable points plus serving BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)). The street part to be 600 volt DC whilst the mainlines would be 25KV and the Severn Beach spur served by ED trams. 

Tram trains are street trams that can also run on heavy rail, they are not substitutes for heavy rail units.

What they are good at is extending a town's street tram system out to the suburbs using existing or reopened heavy rail lines, but with the priviso that heavy rail trains can still run on the line.

I would suggest 10 to 15 miles max from centre.

[John R]

I suspect they will be diesel only (Sorry, self-powered, DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) don't use the D word any more.). Can't see them electrifying 37 miles for an experiment. I agree that a much shorter line would be more appropriate.

Wonder whether these are the new rail-bus (aka Pacer, aka...well several uncomplimentary things actually). Imagine in 25 years rattling down to Taunton in a tram-train that has ended up on a service totally at odds with what they were designed for.

[Lee]

Wonder whether these are the new rail-bus (aka Pacer, aka...well several uncomplimentary things actually). Imagine in 25 years rattling down to Taunton in a tram-train that has ended up on a service totally at odds with what they were designed for.

I did notice this quote, which rang a bell along the lines that John is thinking of :

Northern Rail, which is owned by Serco-Ned Railways, will run a competition for manufacturers to build the tram-trains

I believe that the Pacers came about as a result of a competition as well.

[Lee]

Courtesy of Stop The Train (http://www.stopthetrain.org.uk/) here are a couple of video reports.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7300000/newsid_7303000/7303028.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&nol_storyid=7303028&bbcws=1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7220000/newsid_7220100/7220186.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&nol_storyid=7220186&bbcws=1

BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) article link.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7303727.stm

[John R]

"Diesels on the roof." Now there's a concept I hadn't considered.

[vacman]

What a waste of money? a 142 is a tram train! but all that money being pointlessly spent when its fine as it is, money would be far better spent on reopening Tavvy etc.

[willc]

I believe that the Pacers came about as a result of a competition as well.

They were devised by the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Research Department at Derby, who initially stuck a Leyland National bus body on a Speedlink freight van chassis, before developing powered versions, which led to the 141 (most now in Iran!), 142, 143 and 144s. For pics of the early prototypes, see http://www.traintesting.com/LEVs.htm

The West Yorkshire PTA^▸ (Passenger Transport Authority) (part-sponsor of the Penistone route) has looked in the past at the tram-trains used in Germany, in connection with its plan to bring trams back to Leeds (blocked by you know who - DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)). Kassel is perhaps the most relevant German system here, as its system uses dual-mode diesel/electric sets, which use the tram overhead electric on the streets, but diesel once on DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) main line tracks. And the Germans aren't afraid to use them over long distances - Karlsruhe to Heilbronn is around the 45-mile mark.

As someone who grew up very close to the Penistone Line, trying out this idea here makes a lot of sense to me. It is self-contained route between Huddersfield and Barnsley, then shares the tracks to Meadowhall with Leeds-Sheffield local trains, before a short stretch on the main line into the centre of Sheffield, so in terms of operating conditions, you get a bit of everything. Plus, if all goes well, it offers the possibility of a connection into an actual working tram system, either at Meadowhall or Sheffield station. Please don't knock it before it's even been given a chance. If it proves the concept, then even the DfT might actually see that bringing back trams in the centre of places like Leeds and Bristol, which are able to go further afield on the main rail network, makes sense, even if it's years after the Germans showed that it works.

For more info, see the following:

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/kasseltramtrains/

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:S-Bahn-Karlsruhe.JPG

http://www.wymetro.com/ProjectsAndPlans/Tram-trainsandtrolleybuses/070625-2.htm

PS: Pure trivia, but Huddersfield was the first council in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) to construct and operate its own tramway system, see:

http://www.jsh1949.co.uk/jsh1949/HUDDERSFIELD%20TRAMS.htm

[Lee]

My earlier quote in full :

Wonder whether these are the new rail-bus (aka Pacer, aka...well several uncomplimentary things actually). Imagine in 25 years rattling down to Taunton in a tram-train that has ended up on a service totally at odds with what they were designed for.

I did notice this quote, which rang a bell along the lines that John is thinking of :

Northern Rail, which is owned by Serco-Ned Railways, will run a competition for manufacturers to build the tram-trains

I believe that the Pacers came about as a result of a competition as well.

Quote from the link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_%28train%29

The 'Pacer' series was a project by British Rail (BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))) to create a train, with low running costs, for use on rural and suburban services. At the time, BR was under increasing financial pressure from the government including proposals to cut more rail lines. BR set a challenge to several companies to design a cheap, lightweight train similar to railbuses. Since then, 165 Pacer trains (totalling 340 carriages) have been built, with many of them continuing to be in service over 20 years later.

Seemed like a fair enough comparison to make.

[eightf48544]

Kassel is an excellent example of tram trains but they are only diesel on the line to Wolfhagen of which 24.9Km is on diesel. The other services off the town tram are on DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) lines which use 15Kv 162/3 cycles the standard German Austrian and Swiss electrification system.

The Karlsruhe Heilbronn line is electrified mostly I think at 750 DC^▸ (Direct Current) but it appears to do some street running in Heilbronn and picks up a heavy rail line electrified at standard  DB voltage to Oringen.

One of the most interesting applications is Nordhausen where the town trams metre gauge system  connect with the Harz narrow gauge system and run 11.5 km to Iifeld on diesel power. They share the line into  Nordhausen with steam (large 2-10-2 tanks), HSB railcars and standard gauge bogie hopper (ballast) wagons on rollbocks hauled by regauged ex standard gauge diesel locos,  with radio control. It's uncanny seeing them propelling the loaded hoppers down the hill from the quarry with driver standing on the  front wagon with the control box round his neck and nobody in the loco.

Now how about that for fully utilising the railway infrastructure  and all on metre gauge?

I believe it's the Kassel trams that have the diesel on the roof, I've seen one in the depot but they hadn't entered service when we visited, although we did travel out to the South on a dual voltage tram. The Norhausen ones have a large box  about 6' wide 3' deep and 4' high in the passenger compartment housing the diesel engine. I have a video of one crossing our special train which was hauled by one of the Mallet tanks.

So as people are saying it's not a tram train per say as it's not going to come off heavy rail to do street running in Sheffield (yet), it's not going to be mostly electric, it's a lightweight railcar. However it should ride be better than a 14X and might have air conditioning (if it was electric it would)  but it won't have many seats, which is fine for short runs but not 37 miles.

As I say they would ideal for Bristol, put trams through the centre and BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) and connect to the Avonmouth/Severn Beach  and Portishead lines. Electrify the heavy rail at 25KV in anticipation. Thats not going to be any more expensive than 600/750 DC as you don't need to rectify the supply. and use EDs on the short run from Avonmouth to Severn Beach

[Lee]

A lot of people have asked "why the Penistone line?"

Personally, I think that it is less to do with the characteristics of the line, and more to do with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) needing to be seen to be doing something for the area concerned in order to gloss over their inaction regarding the nearby Woodhead Tunnel issue (link below.)
http://www.savethewoodheadtunnel.blogspot.com/

I have a question regarding the Tram-Train proposal :

The trial starts in 2010 and will take two years. Network Rail will spend ^15m in track improvements and alterations to Penistone line stations as part of the trial.

What happens if the trial is considered a failure? Do the Penistone line stations then get converted back to their original status, presumably at some extra cost?

[RichardB]

Lee, 

Why the Penistone Line?  Two additional reasons, I would guess: one that it is a Community Rail Pilot Line; the second is that it has to be a Northern route as Northern are partners in the tram-train pilot.

Can't answer the other question other than to say that the Network Rail people I know are very firmly convinced that the pilot will be a success.

Cheers,

Richard

[smokey]

Tram-Trains running around Penistone could well bring about a massive increase in Passenger useage of the Rail system around Penistone, and a reduction in car use.

Now it just seems a massive shame that somebody shut th line from Sheffield to Manchester via Penistone, ( that was electrified) be 150% good to see a Tram-Train service from Altrincham thou Woodhead to Sheffield.

[Lee]

Lee, 

Why the Penistone Line?  Two additional reasons, I would guess: one that it is a Community Rail Pilot Line; the second is that it has to be a Northern route as Northern are partners in the tram-train pilot.

Can't answer the other question other than to say that the Network Rail people I know are very firmly convinced that the pilot will be a success.

Cheers,

Richard

I admire Network Rail's optimism, and I hope that they are correct.

I also hope that there is a plan B if they are wrong, both because of the station modification issue, and the fact that the heavy rail rolling stock that currently provides the Penistone line services is likely to be redeployed elsewhere during the tram-train trial.

On Woodhead, the people I have spoken to reckon that the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are very rattled by that issue and the associated bad publicity.

[ChrisP]

Some interesting comments here. Eightf is spot on about tram train suitability for Bristol: Portishead-Centre-Avonmouth/Filton etc. They could solve the problem of Temple Mead's peripheral location quite cheaply, by building a tram line through the harbour area to join the Portishead branch near Ashton Gate. This could eventually be used by tram trains on routes such as Weston-Yate or Weston-Bath-Wiltshire.

Mention of Germany and diesel engines on the roof reminds me that I travelled on the BOB railway from Munich to the Alp foothills (Tegernsee). It uses new tram-like dmus with roof-mounted engines which means they're quieter and less vibration-prone than underfloor engine units. They're the nicest dmus I've been on, and show you don't need electrification to get quiet trains. I wonder if roof-mounted engines would work with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) loading gauge, though.

There are pictures on the BOB website (Bayerische Oberland Bahn). Incidentally, BOB is a Veolia (Connex as was) company.