Trains must leave on time AT ALL COSTS? Discretion?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

A sideshoot from another thread - worthy of further discussion ...

Here's an example (in my opinion) of poor discretion though. Recently I was sitting on the xx55 to Taunton at Temple Meads, when the late running xx44 to Plymouth arrived at the adjacent platform. As the doors opened on the Plymouth train the guard closed the doors on the Taunton, although they were fully aware that some people were trying to catch it. Indeed, some were left standing outside the closed doors with some frustration, being told to stand back, with maybe an hour's wait.

So off we toddled, and the punchline to this story is that we then sat at Bedminster for 5 minutes to let the Plymouth pass (which is standard practice in such a scenario, so the staff would have known that was going to happen). Thus a 30 second delay in despatch at Temple Meads would have made no difference at all.

I wish this could be moved to a thread where we could discuss the actual issue, as that is more interesting and comes over as incredible.  I wonder, did none of you ask the guard of the Taunton what he thought he was doing?

[John R]

swrural - no I didn't.  Maybe I should have done but I didn't think it was my place to raise it, particularly as it didn't affect me.

There was one occasion when I did try to intervene as a train was being despatched from Temple Meads and I was told in no uncertain terms to be quiet and mind my business. That was when platform 15 was out of action at Temple Meads and for a week or so my HST^▸ (High Speed Train) was leaving from the other end of a platform face which 15 minutes later had a London service. No warning had been given, and there were a lot of people on board who ended up going in completely the opposite direction to which they were hoping to go.

In that case I accepted that for safety reasons the train manager didn't want to speak to someone as he was despatching the train, although he would have heard the problem before he cut me short, and I think he could have safely brought the train to a halt as it was literally just moving off.

There were some very unhappy people at Nailsea 10 minutes later.

[Oxman]

Some factual input to start with.

Dispatchers and guards normally have no discretion to delay the dispatch of a train. If they did create a delay, they would be reprimanded. The only authority for a late dispatch is Control.

I say normally, because there are some places with predefined permissable delays to allow a connection to be made. Examples would be at Swindon for connections to Cheltenham, or at Oxford for connections to the Cotswolds, Banbury and Bicester Town (don't know if this one still applies now that Chiltern run this service). The allowable delay is worked out for each service and ranges from none to a few minutes. The actual number is determined by looking at the possible knock on effects and turnround times. Dispatchers must not exceed the permissabe delay - if they did, it would be a "please explain" and the station manager picks up the delay minutes. In practice, the station staff watch for possible missed connections and will make a call to the signaller if they intend to use a permitted delay. There is no need to call Control.

Watching for possible missed connections is OK at smaller stations such as Swindon, but at stations like Reading and Bristol TM^‡(resolve) is almost impossible. A late arrival from Gatwick at Reading may well have passengers connecting into half a dozen services. Clearly, they can't all be delayed waiting the arrival of the Gatwick service. The reasoning is that with so many regular interval services from hub stations, passengers on late running trains will only have to wait 30 mins, or an hour at most. Also, dispatching on time stops the spread of delays through the network.

Elsewhere, station staff who are on the ball may see reason to hold a connection for a late arrival. If its not a permitted delay, they must call the Control Manager and seek authority. The Control Manager is in a position to consider the wider picture, and will make a decision accordingly. It gets more complicated when the connecting service is operated by another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company).

The thinking changes for last services of the day. They will usually be held for connections, within reason. Again, the station staff have to see the need (and none of them like having stranded passengers late at night - lots of taxis) and get authority to hold the connection from Control. Control is usually quite accomodating in these cases.

Just one comment on speaking to TMs during a dispatch. (Not the obvious one of not doing it during a safety critical procedure!) At staffed stations the dispatcher initiates the dispatch by pressing the TRTS^▸ (Train Ready To Start. A plunger/switch pressed by platform dispatch staff that informs the signaller that a train is ready to depart.) for the signaller to give the road. The dispatcher will then give the tip to the TM at the right time, assuming there is a proceed aspect, of course. The TM thus responds to the dispatcher. Once it has started, it will only be stopped in an emergency. No one will delay the dispatch unnecessarily - the road has been given and there may be other trains waiting.

And TMs don't stop a train that has started moving other than in an emergency. If a train that has stated moving comes to a stop, the signaller must be immediately informed and the train redispatched after speaking to the driver and the signaller. The paperwork is horrendous!

Hope this helps.

[JayMac]

TRTS^▸ (Train Ready To Start. A plunger/switch pressed by platform dispatch staff that informs the signaller that a train is ready to depart.)? Train Ready To Start?

If so I'll add it to the Abbreviations/Acronyms page.

[bobm]

TRTS^▸ (Train Ready To Start. A plunger/switch pressed by platform dispatch staff that informs the signaller that a train is ready to depart.)? Train Ready To Start?

Yes - it was spelt out in full on the relevant button on the old platform 8 at Reading in years gone by.

Picking up on Oxman's very informative post, I did ask about the procedure for holding Golden Valley line trains at Swindon last year.  Apparently they can hold for eight minutes without further reference to Control.  I have also noticed, in the mid to late evenings, if the train from London is late they will often try to route it into Platform 3 so that passengers making the connection can get on the Cheltenham train with the minimum of delay.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

There is also the issue of late platform changes, which was a particular problem with the "old" Reading station.  It was not uncommon for XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))'s to have a very late platform change from (old) P8 to P3, which left passengers on P8 unable to get across to P3 before the XC departed (on time).  Unless you ran of course, which was VERY NAUGHTY.

I've seen a similar thing happen at Padd as well.  Maybe if NR^» (Network Rail - home page) do a late platform change the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should insist (as part of their franchise agreement) that enough time is allowed for passengers to change platform safely before the train departs - and any delay minutes go against NR.   

[grahame]

Fascinating ... as an outsider / one who's not familiar with the BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) incidents ... if it's common and well known that this happens with that particular pattern in the hour, should it be one of the predefined situations?    I know that the more exceptions / easements there are, the harder it is for the system to remain co-herent and understood, but if it's common place to close the doors in people's faces then sit at the signal for 5 minutes ...

On platform notification and changes.  Off topic (!).  Is there a minimum time set at Paddington between the announcement of a platform number for the first time and the departure of the train?

[trainer]

I am reminded of a similar incident at Bristol TM^‡(resolve) many years ago in the days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)).  Arriving one Sunday evening at about 18:00 some five to ten minutes late from London the onward 150 for all stations to Taunton (a 'booked' connection) was standing on the opposite face of of the same platform in a tantalising and uncharacteristically helpful way.  I'm not even sure we had locks on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) doors then, but as we all stepped off the ex-Paddington the guard shut the doors of the nearly empty 150 leaving me with a two hour wait for Yatton and those pax for south of Weston-s-Mare with a four hour wait (ah, the good old days).

I subsequently received an apology by letter (and a ^10.00 voucher!) and an explanation that because of the single line route through Weston-s-M meant trains could not be held.  It seemed to me, though, that a Sunday evening with such a sparse service could have been treated differently.  Interestingly, I was expected to wait (I called a friend to come and pick me up) but the pax to Highbridge and beyond were given taxis, I think.  Some things remain the same operationally regardless of who pays the managers.

[eightf48544]

This has been a perennial problem on the railways since the first Junctionn station  with a connecting train (I wonder where? one for a quiz?) opened.

I used to get into terrible trouble with passengers at Sutton when we let the Epsom Downs train go when the London connection via Hackbridge was late, try explaining that the Epsom Downs train had to get up the branch turn round and be back at Sutton right time to get accross the Junction. Still they only had 30 minutes to wait.

The current situation is confused by the "bean counters" who consider each train as an indiviual entity so it has to run to time and to an extent stand on it's own feet commercialy. They fail to understand that a major part of the utility of the railway is that its is a network with myriad journey possibilities made possible by changing trains. Just think of the journies you can make with just one change at Birmingham New Street! Presumably it's a function of N! where N is the number of stations directly served from New Street.

Where it gets silly is having the train pull into the platform opposite and the TM^‡(resolve) shuts the doors of the connecting train that in my opinion should NEVER happen it's just bad management, 

Especialy these days when there's so much padding in the timetable the connecting train will easily make up time.

it's one of the problems with targets they have unexpected consequences people will fiddle them to give the best possible picture, as we are currently seeing in the NHS. The only thing to said for fiddling rail statistics is that it's only money involved not peoples lives.

I blame Watts who was MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) for Slough and junior minister at the time of privatisation who made a pronoucement Connecting trains will NOT be held under the new more efficient private railway.

 

[ChrisB]

On platform notification and changes.  Off topic (!).  Is there a minimum time set at Paddington between the announcement of a platform number for the first time and the departure of the train?

Nope....it's an across the board problem too. Same problem regularly occurs at Marylebone with late announcements not allowing enough time to reach platforms 4-6....

[grahame]

On platform notification and changes.  Off topic (!).  Is there a minimum time set at Paddington between the announcement of a platform number for the first time and the departure of the train?

Nope....it's an across the board problem too. Same problem regularly occurs at Marylebone with late announcements not allowing enough time to reach platforms 4-6....

National Rail says 15 minutes minimum connection time at Paddington - isn't half of that time to get to the concourse from [wherever] and then a half to get from the concourse to your outbound train and reserved seat in "A" with your granny and luggage?

Unreaslistic - Grannies not allowed in "A" due to chatter volume 

[BBM]

On platform notification and changes.  Off topic (!).  Is there a minimum time set at Paddington between the announcement of a platform number for the first time and the departure of the train?

Nope....it's an across the board problem too. Same problem regularly occurs at Marylebone with late announcements not allowing enough time to reach platforms 4-6....

I still have painful memories from BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days in the early 90s when a stopping service to Twyford was announced to depart from Platform 13 at Paddington just 3 minutes before it was due to leave. I was on The Lawn and I had a heavy suitcase as I was returning from holiday, and as in those days the trains were only half-hourly I had to run for it, but I did my knee in and I was off work for a few days, which didn't look good after being on leave for 2 weeks!

Another story from about the same time in BR days concerns a journey from Bristol TM^‡(resolve) to Twyford. My intended train from Bristol was cancelled, the next was delayed and arrived in Reading just over 30 minutes late so I was over an hour late on my original plan. I knew the Twyford connection would be tight and I went to the front of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) in the hope it would stop in Platform 5 alongside the Turbo in Platform 6 which it did and the doors were still open (in those days Turbos in Platform 6 opened doors on both sides). But just as I leapt off the HST the Turbo doors closed! Grrrrr!!! So I ran to the front of the train and managed to bang on the driver's window before he started to move off. i quickly explained my anger and he re-opened the doors, thank goodness!

[bobm]

So I ran to the front of the train and managed to bang on the driver's window before he started to move off. i quickly explained my anger and he re-opened the doors, thank goodness!

Those were the days - bang on the window now and he'd probably call British Transport Police! 

[Oxman]

If a platform change is initiated by the signaller, then the station staff are entitled to take as much time as needed to get everybody across to the new platform and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) picks up the delay minutes (although they might be reallocated to the incident that caused the platform change). Having said that, the staff wll be under pressure to minimise the delay. My experience at Reading was that the siganaller would sometimes check with the platform staff to see how many customers were waiting, how many wheelchairs expected etc, and would then make a decision as to whether to change platform or hold the train until the booked platform became available. How it works now, with signalling controlled from Didcot, I have no idea. The platform staff would then check with each other by radio to make sure everyone had crossed to the new platform, befoe dispatching the train.

However, none of this allowed for the passengers that had done a grand tour of the station, stopped off at the toilets, or didn't hear the announcement because they were listening to their MP3 player, all of who missed the train and complained furiously!

[grahame]

At least with a connecting train leaving after the incoming train has arrived, there's a sporting chance of avoiding a long wait at Junction.  We've got cases here where the London train arrives at 06:38 with the would-be connection leaving at 06:28, and the London train arriving at 15:44, with the would-be connection leaving at 15:38.   If I were looking for "sympathy votes", I would tell you just how much earlier the previous train from London arrived  . Unsurprisingly, the numbers of people waiting from the London train for the onward services are limited, as it's simply not an attractive proposition.

P.S. There are better connections on Saturday and Sunday evenings - 10 minutes, which is ideal.